Redigiertes Transkript des Mediendisputs 02/08
„Was wissen wir noch vom Weltgeschehen – über die Krise des Auslandsjournalismus und die Rolle der Geheimdienste bei der internationalen Aufklärung“
Vorstellung und Einleitung:
Leif: Da kommt jetzt als erstes unser Presseoffizier, Dirk Schulze, Lutz then mosquito, communication scientists, including Ashwin Raman, freelance TV journalist, reporter crisis and finally Elmar Theveßen. This is our tour tonight. It's always nice if the speakers are denied in the case, Mr Zaymenz. He must have thought: If you make this international theme, then get at most 80 people. We're always under pressure to have our own pressure ratio, which is expressed by audience response. But I am glad that you have denied it, and you receive compensation determined by a very interesting round tonight.
We want to do something under the national high school standard formulated title: "What we know vom Weltgeschehen – über die Krise des Auslandsjournalismus und die Rolle der Geheimdienste bei der internationalen Aufklärung“. Das haben wir extra so formuliert, damit die Referenten uns nicht vorab absagen. Wenn Sie das anders formulieren, dann kriegen sie nur Absagen.
Fangen wir also mit Herrn Raman an. Vielleicht haben Sie vor kurzem seinen Film über den Irak in der ARD gesehen? Herr Raman hat 18 längere Filme alleine über den Irak und 11 über Afghanistan gedreht. Herr Raman, wenn Sie Ihre Erfahrung bilanzieren, was läuft schief etwa in der Irak-Berichterstattung?
Raman: Meiner Ansicht nach wird nicht über den Irak berichtet, sondern über die Anzahl der Menschen, die dort ums Leben . Come If a bomb goes off somewhere, then the "news" is. But we know very little about the country, because the coverage remains with the attacks.
Ashwin Raman - a freelance reporter in Iraq and Afghanistan crisis:
Leif: You yourself are working with their own camera, as a VJ. What brings you to the benefits?
Raman: I have several advantages: First, once my skin color. I can mix well, and I move too freely, people with white skin color there are not so easy. Even dark skin sometimes has just benefits. And I have contacts with the military, even to the insurgents. And somehow, for some Why I have their confidence. They think, what to offer or say to me is so presented. I have this confidence of both sides.
Leif: You have made a world-level report, even with their own camera, where you have shown the raid by U.S. soldiers with families in Iraq. And we have been surprised really: How did you ran so close? Was the only possible because you had your own camera?
Raman: Yes, I work with as always a 500 € camera. Again and again I am asked for my camera and as I turn - then, as I turn? I buy a 16:9 format camera, set it to "Automatic" and then I turn. That's all I'm doing. It is my conviction that the Mensch hinter der Kamera die wichtigste Komponente ist, nicht das Gerät oder die Technik. Dieses Ereignis konnte ich drehen, weil ich in dem Jeep vor Ort war und gesehen habe, was da passiert. Also habe ich es gedreht. Ich konnte das aufnehmen, weil ich unauffällig bin und gut mit solchen Leuten zurechtkomme. Und diesen Einwand muss ich auch loswerden: Wenn ich diese ganzen Diskussionen höre über Auslandsberichterstattung, dann werde ich wütend: In diesen Ländern gibt es kein fließendes Wasser, kein warmes Essen, es gibt Soldaten – und dann denke ich, diese Menschen, die entscheiden, was die Bevölkerung in Deutschland sehen oder hören soll, (...), also, das kann doch nicht stimmen!
Leif: But when you came with their material to the world level editors, you have you kissed his feet and said: "Very good, Mr. Raman, this is a fantastic work you have done."
Raman: No, that was me not said. It is true that this report was published first in Channel 4. And the newsletter went to all over the world. Finally, I have called the issues of the day. So, I tell you openly and honestly, I could have made any films, if I had not one or the other, especially a person in an institution, the trust has to me and my cause and this would bring to the fore. Without this mediation I had no chance.
· Embedded Journalism - a former press officer told
Leif: We go to the left of me to Dirk Schulze. He knows what to do in another continent in crisis, we also learn about the little - Afghanistan. Are you convinced Military. Twelve years and two years of additional.
Schulze: War. War.
Leif: War. If one is not his whole life? Military service for twelve years, plus two years contract?
Schulze: But already.
Leif: What has driven you to stay so long in the military?
Schulze: It was just this mixture. One is the responsibility to Human and material. On the other hand, is this friendship, camaraderie, cohesion. That was really nice things.
Leif: But eventually you come to the former, but that not everything is going so great in Afghanistan, and you wrote with a colleague the book "A Streetcar Named Kabul. Over 50,000 copies have already been sold. No one would have expected, not even the editor. And now you tell us: Why has this book as an appeal? Is it because it shows the dirty side of Afghanistan and the deployment of German?
Schulze: I think people here, the population of the Federal Republic of Germany, who has a need a need for reporting from that country. And while gritty and unvarnished. Like the soldiers go on site with the people around, like the soldiers living there? The questions we have answered the first time with the book.
Leif: What goes wrong in Afghanistan during the military deployment and the deployment of German soldiers?
Schulze: My personal opinion is that this one will not make use of military success. Since we can still send 200000-300000 soldiers down, that does not work. What is missing, the first thing is a testable target site, from which one can say: In five years we want to stand there in ten years we want to be there. And After 13 years we may be able to provide an exit strategy because we have achieved what we set out. The goals are now formulated rather very vague. You can always say again: Well, we have achieved we have achieved with "good will". I do not have a strategy. This is not only the problem of the Federal Republic, which is a global problem that also see the UN, Americans and others.
Leif: And why do you hold in spite of this lack of strategic goals set in the Afghanistan mission?
Schulze: I think very clearly why: it has bought free of the Iraq mission by sending the troops into the supposedly safer country has, and not in Iraq. It has been said: We show "good will", we want to send troops. But now we reached a limit. We just do not get more to send more troops to the conscript army.
Leif: But this argument reads or hears little in the German media?
Schulz: Right. But this is my personal opinion because I have seen it on the ground otherwise, because I could also be provided by superiors not a clear purpose, goal or purpose, why should I defend freedom of Germany in the Hindu Kush.
Leif: You were also the press officer, as you have seen the work of journalists, roll the Bundeswehr with such machines?
Schulze: Sehr differenziert. Wie Sie schon angesprochen haben, wenn die Reise dann, ich sage es mal ganz salopp, über die Bundeswehr gebucht worden ist, wenn sie „embedded“ statt findet, dann konnte der Presseoffizier vor Ort ganz gezielt auf diese Kollegen einwirken und denen ganz gezielt zeigen, was gezeigt werden sollte. Und zwar Patrouillen, die schick zurechtgemacht waren. Wir sind dann Patrouillen gefahren in Stadtteile, von denen man wusste, dass sie ruhig sind, dass die Bevölkerung dort den Deutschen sehr wohl gesonnen ist, weil beispielsweise gerade eine Schule aufgemacht worden ist. Aber dann gab es auch noch die freien Journalisten, die nicht „embedded“ waren, die dort rein gegangen sind und mal We walked maybe now and then perhaps only on the track. They have already brought quite a different picture.
Leif: But there you have practiced good, if the German journalists came to the German defense minister?
Schulz: Right. Correct.
Leif: What does such an exercise so that journalists feel comfortable?
Schulze: We have it in our book as a "monkey show", called a circus monkey. No politician makes a surprise visit there. It is announced weeks before. Roads must be secured and locked, accommodations must be created. Since then, in parallel prior practice with specific troops. As is now said, You is now the patrol, which will then drive out. The clothes are brushed, the shoes are cleaned, polished their arms to a shine. There are provided by the MilGeowesen maps, world maps, are available. It really is a show event for the press. The boys then get out even after the press is with the politicians by, but they take a dip in the camp because they have already expressed their patrol behind him, and then leave to rest or prepare for the real next job before.
Leif: Is that what an exceptional program for the private channels or make public broadcasters with?
Schulze: This is definitely for those who come in with politicians. This program is for everyone, including the public broadcasters.
Leif: And what has that in your view, the consequences for the consumer? What image of Afghanistan, he gets?
Schulze: The end user is the first member of the Bundestag, which serves as a multiplier for his party. He then reimbursed so report says, "Man, I've seen since only send soldiers who live there, well, all of which have reported in unison:" We're fine down there. We have no problems. "And on the other side then the group is behind the deputies who are out einstimmt und sagt: „Mensch, gar keine Probleme! Wir können den Einsatz, das Mandat verlängern.“ Das wird natürlich auch wieder in den Medien als Statement gegeben. Und das kommt dann so bei den Bürgern an.
Leif: Man hat also kein vollständiges Bild?
Schulze: Nein, definitiv nicht.
Problem 1: Zu wenig Kompetenz
Einer für einen ganzen Kontinent und Inkompetenz in der Heimatredaktion
Leif: Von Irak und Afghanistan wandern wir weiter zu Herrn Mücke nach Afrika. Sie haben zwei Jahre in Afrika verbracht – für Ihr Studium aber auch als Journalist. Sie waren in verschiedenen Ländern auf dem Kontinent und haben jetzt Ihre Dissertation weitgehend fertig gestellt. Wenn Sie mal - Wissenschaftler können das ja in aller Knappheit - sagen, was ist Ihre fundamentale Erkenntnis ist, die Sie Ihrem Doktorvater präsentieren werden? Was macht die Afrika-Berichterstattung aus?
Mücke: Eine weitgehende Inkompetenz. Und zwar auf vielen Feldern. Ich will mal kurz die Strukturprobleme der Afrika-Berichterstattung beschreiben: Etwa seit der Medienkrise, aber auch schon vorher, seit der Mitte der 90er Jahre, findet ein massiver Korrespondentenabbau statt, die Korrespondentenzahlen sinken: Ungefähr 20 Prozent, also jeder fünfte Korrespondent wurde zurückgezogen. Das betrifft in erster Linie die Printmedien, bei den Öffentlich-Rechtlichen fand kein Stellenabbau statt. Another structural problem is that topics that will be tilled, especially hot-spots. That is, wars, crises, disasters - the disaster continent of Africa. Second, it also create Boulevard topics in the reporting - folklore, anthropology, animals. These are the two big issues for Africa is good. What is left out tends to be daily life, economy, employee perspectives, cultural issues. In these areas, you will if you talk to people, listen again and again complaints.
Leif: You have talked with correspondents itself, which was part of your survey. What are the views - and image analysis on the status of their reporting ergeben. Was sagen die, was sie selbst leisten können?
Mücke: Wenig. Das Bild von Afrika in der Berichterstattung ist extrem verzerrt, extrem eurozentristisch. Das macht sich zum Beispiel auch daran fest, welche Quellen Korrespondenten nutzen. Der Hauptteil der Quellen sind deutsche, sind europäische Quellen, sind UNO, sind externe Quellen. Das wird Herr Theveßen dann vielleicht auch über den Libanon erzählen. Zu einem gewissen Grad findet ein Ausschluss der Afrikaner aus der Berichterstattung statt, weil sie keine Chance haben, diese wahrzunehmen. Kaum einer spricht da Deutsch, kaum einer rezipiert deutsche Medien. Das heißt, Kritik von afrikanischer Seite an dieser Berichterstattung wird nicht herangetragen. Dann is a major problem, the indifference and the incompetence of the home editor. And I speak now of the leading media, I am not talking now about the national media, but I'm talking about the big media outlets in Germany, send someone to Africa at all.
If someone is responsible as a counterpart to the editors for content creation and management, then the report generally two areas to look after. That is, the editor has just then Eastern Europe and Africa or the Middle East and Africa. And then where the priorities are set, is clear. This is of course not sub-Saharan Africa, but the other reporting areas.
Leif: And if we translate our title of the evening to Africa, then what we know at the end of Africa yet?
mosquito: We get an extremely distorted picture, which, as in Afghanistan, like Iraq in no way reflects the realities of everyday life or life in Africa. I would like to mention also a very important number: Sub-Saharan Africa has 48 countries, and most of the correspondents also manage 48 countries. Full range of topics, from culture, economics to politics. The correspondent is to make war coverage and provide even color themes. It is a structural fraud that takes place there. The work tasks that he should meet there really are not at all feasible. I think that number speaks volumes about the simple enormous lack of interest, which prevails in Germany to this report areas. explains information avoidance and disinterest
A program makers are
Leif::
Problem 2 Mr Theveßen, you can imagine, the three have produced the extra flame you because you are the person responsible, so to speak. How do you respond? What do you say to colleagues?
Theveßen: that everything is right, what was said here. You have to hold on as the first: It has a lot to do with changes in the information landscape, even in the media landscape. I also noticed that many correspondents have been removed. In the case of public broadcasters, however, less. If we look at our structure, we must ascertaining numerical: The has not changed much at ZDF - and I can only speak for ZDF. We still have the same number of studios in those areas. We have the same number, sometimes even more correspondents in these areas. Nevertheless, one wonders, why does all the things you have said? This is perhaps because we see a hand in our newscasts more in these regions, even away from Europe by the way, what do not some European correspondents. This was read in the last few months, yes. But the fact is that we look more into these regions of the world, even in news broadcasts. And many times we try, the background to the events to be supplied in the same news programs. We see an increasing number of background contributions, also in the main news programs: for example, about the refugees who are trying to come to Ceuta and Melilla to Europe. But at the same time, the question arises: Where are the documentaries? Where are the magazine articles? To be quite honest: They're still there. If we calculate, we find that we have about the same number from all of these countries reporting. Some of the studios, especially in Africa, have a much higher output than in past years or decades. I think it is only less, because the audience may watch different programs, looking for distraction - and perhaps more in the colorful than in the background reporting. And we also send in prime-time clock at 20.15 on Tuesday evening have a great documentary on the Arab royal family with all the problems. But it is watched by far fewer viewers than before.
Leif: in the past would have been called something like cognitive dissonance.
Theveßen: I believe we must seek new ways. This is a change us from our structures to the point that we have colleagues who are similar to Mr. Raman way and try to dig up these stories that are exciting are. That takes a special kind of correspondent and journalist. As we may all become a bit too comfortable in recent years and decades. This is also dangerous. And the other is another form of storytelling. The Travels of a correspondent is now used far, far fewer viewers than they did ten years ago. And so we have to consider other dramatic means to these regions of the world to bring viewers closer
Leif: But still play, you had to recently fire, because what has happened in the ZDF something happen at all should not have: Several prominent Foreign correspondents are just gone to the "Gong" and have quite cut the gong to have said that the international issues that they do in Paris, Vienna or London, were no longer prime-time capability. As you have read the "Gong", Mr Theveßen what did you think? What was your first reaction?
Theveßen: I was pissed because we have on this subject in past years and again spoken times. And the interesting thing is: Those who complain are precisely those which bore we have expanded the coverage of other regions of the world. We could not previously reported from Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, China in the way of how we are doing today. This is natürlich zu Lasten der Europaberichterstattung. Und ich frage dann mal ganz ehrlich, hier sind ja einige Kronzeugen da: Was ist am Ende wichtiger, dass wir über den Entwurf einen Gesetztes in London, in Großbritannien berichten, das vielleicht es irgendwann mal durchs Parlament geschafft hat – und somit Verlaufsberichterstattung betreiben, oder dass wir intensiv hin gucken in solche Länder und Regionen, die wir in vergangenen Jahrzehnten unterbelichtet haben?
Leif: Aber Sie waren so stocksauer, dass Sie eine Mail geschrieben haben - so wird es jedenfalls zitiert - wenn Sie dienstrechtlich verantwortlich wären, würden Sie dienstrechtliche Konsequenzen ziehen.
Theveßen: Also ich sage zu diesem Part time nothing now.
Leif: But I have it in black and white. It is also okay. If he is pissed, he may also react pissed.
Theveßen: I think we first of all discuss these things with each other to. And I would very happy if these comments had been discussed in the house itself with the newsrooms. In reporting internals, communication between correspondents and people in the office have fallen into the public. Among colleagues, is not. Which does not change the fact that we should discuss about the heart of the matter. We have done that. Both in writing and at headquarters in Mainz with stakeholders. And Bottom Line ist: Wir können belegen, dass all die Vorwürfe, die im „Gong“ im Bezug auf angebliche Verseichtung in der Berichtserstattung genannt wurden, falsch sind. Das lässt sich anhand von Zahlen, Fakten, Abläufen der Nachrichtensendungen belegen. Ich hätte mich deshalb gefreut, wenn wir uns lieber konstruktiv überlegen, wie wir zum Beispiel aus Afghanistan, Irak und anderen Ländern intensiver berichten und ob vielleicht auch westeuropäische Kollegen den Mut aufbringen, in diese Länder zu reisen.
Leif: So sehen es jedenfalls auch diese drei Promis, weil sie wollen jetzt gar nichts öffentlich sagen zum Thema. Die sind jetzt kuriert. Und im Grunde sehen sie das alles so ähnlich like you. That is, the "Gong" has somehow made the gong?
Theveßen: I think that some see this is still different. We talked intensively with colleagues, and everyone has their opinions. What annoys me is that I do not know who has seen today morning the "Kölner Stadt Anzeiger: What can I do not have, is when you afterwards then again walking around and acts as a will until after the criticism of foreign correspondents have used the first reflection on ZDF. This is pure nonsense. We have been doing for decades thought about doing a high quality range.
Leif: Last point: you with some programming decisions but still difficult to do, where you pulled out by the "International Journal" an important central mission of prime time - later in the evening.
Theveßen: I would have liked to see the "International Journal" would rather be placed directly after the "heute-journal". But, where it was, it has suffered badly. It has been very often. Second, came the Vollaufpublikum of shows like "Aktenzeichen XY character" or "Marianne and Michael." And since it is incredibly difficult for such a mission, to some extent to find the audience and knowing how to operate a format work. Now the "international journal 45th to 22 Clock And if you have ever looked inside lately, you'll see that our colleagues use it. It is first-class international reporting, which takes place in the "international journal", which is challenging television, and, incidentally, available on the Internet, which then removes the problem a little time.
Problem 3: Bureaucracy, structural constraints and inability
loss of quality journalism abroad
Leif: Mr Raman, you are convinced by the arguments you have just heard?
Raman: No, the core problem in Germany, this introverted thinking. We live in an age of globalization. The program makers say, "odds! We are not against any series on RTL and so. "And that's my opinion, wrong. My last film was an example. I report for 40 years from war zones. My first war was Vietnam. And I have never received so much response, my films often ran only until half past eleven. But the willingness is there for. And if you now any numbers and research reports as submitted and finds that few people see the articles - I do not think these arguments. What do these statistics? You have to talk with people who want to see what the. And that's the biggest problem with Germany: We do on and on. We discuss a lot. I would like to die Diskussion „Kinder statt Inder“ erinnern. Wir haben hier diskutiert: Die Inder werden kommen, sie werden hier bleiben. Bis wir fertig waren mit der Diskussion, waren die Kinder längst schon in Silicon Valley. Und dabei wollte sowieso niemand hierher kommen wegen der Sprache. Wir sind Weltmeister in Diskussionen, in Forschung und Zahlen, aber wir tun wenig.
Leif: Aber was sind aus Ihrer Sicht die Gründe? Dieses falsche Bild auf die Realität, man konstruiert sich eine Wirklichkeit, so dass die Leute desinteressiert sind und dass sie das nicht wissen wollen?
Raman: Nein, das glaube ich nicht. Wissen Sie, die öffentlich-rechtlichen kann man vergleichen mit den Kombinaten in der DDR-Zeit. Das Big animals are unlikely to much bureaucracy. And if you as a freelance correspondent since not catch a man who understands abroad, and knows a story, then nothing happens. So I've had people who have taken my film - and there was a sequence that does not understand the editor, so I had to cut it out. This happened often. Sometimes the editors have also been fears that the insurgents, we can not such an approach. There are few qualified journalists who understand the international - and this is reflected in the reporting.
Leif Mr. mosquito, as you see it? What in your view, the reasons for this change im Auslandsjournalismus?
Mücke: Was mir die Korrespondenten immer wieder genannt haben, wäre die Technisierung – also die Digitalisierung – die auf der einen Seite extrem hilfreich ist, denn man kann jetzt kommunizieren mit allen Ecken des Kontinents. Aber gleichzeitig, und das ist paradox, bindet diese Digitalisierung die Leute ans Büro. Das heißt, die Redaktionen wollen, dass die Korrespondenten ständig verfügbar sind. Ein sehr gutes Beispiel ist da ARD-Hörfunk, wo es auch als Komplementärstück fast keine Auslandsredaktionen mehr gibt – und das führt dazu, dass 50 Radiowellen, jeder Redakteur, jeder, der etwas möchte, sich bei dem einen Korrespondenten beispielsweise in Nairobi must sign in with his wishes. And then you have the tenacity and the first thick fur have to say: No, I have now for three weeks in the Congo. This is not at all. That is, in fact, the funds which are to promote research but, to the ball on the leg. I see that as a dangerous trend.
Problem 4: Overburdened correspondents
Fed with fakes and propaganda
Leif: How does the correspondents with whom you spoke to this development?
mosquito: Cynical. Cynical, first, that one fits into these structures. These structures are indeed set - and a correspondent in Africa can not change this. I once met a correspondent who has finally produced in the year 1000 contributions. Imagine that! 1000 radio reports from Nairobi, in this reporting area, which is definitely one of the toughest around the world. Infrastructural, logistical, source of receipts, everything. It takes a lot of time, it's extremely expensive. And this man has brought it managed to produce 1,000 articles. And since home is no counterpart, no editorial board, which also examined the times what is actually delivered because of content, no one has questioned this output. On the contrary, he was then promoted yet, in an even "more important" Korrespondentenstand. Er wurde groß gelobt in der WDR-Print. Aber wie hat er diesen Output zustande gebracht? Es war zum großen Teil virtueller Journalismus. Er sitzt in seinem Büro, wartet darauf, dass eben 50 Radiowellen und was weiß ich wie viele Redakteure da anrufen. Er muss aktuell berichten, und das bedient er. Und er sitzt in seinem Büro, hört früh BBC oder AFP und schneidet mit. Das ist sozusagen die primäre Quelle. Nun wäre das alles nicht ganz schlimm, wenn er das angeben würde: Wie BBC sagte… Aber das ist nicht der Fall. Sie denken: Mensch, das ist ja ein Kerl von Schrot und Korn, der geht ja nach Somalia, und da hat er den interviewt und diesen und jenen. Das kann unter Umständen gar nicht der his case. Often are also machine-gun fire and helicopter sounds in the background from the Sound Archive.
Leif: That means, we will be a pre-X makes a U?
fly: hundreds of percent - in this case, because I do not want to extend to all colleagues. This was an isolated case, he has also been criticized, but has not led to any consequences.
Leif: How does it look with the Home editors? You can also drag because such a balance? Can you say generally that it is so bad in the head editors that there is no clue? Or are the more under pressure? I read a study, published in six months from Brost Institute that eher die Redakteure in den Heimredaktionen die Korrespondenten mit absurden Aufgaben belästigen und ihnen Dinge abverlangen, die sich überhaupt nicht decken lassen mit der Realität vor Ort.
Mücke: Das ist ganz sicher so, aber das hat was mit Kompetenzen zu tun, das hat was mit der Kontinuität der Betreuung dieser Berichtsgebiete zu tun. Eine Tendenz ist ja, dass junge Redakteure in den Auslandsjournalismus in diesen Redaktionen einsteigen, und dann ein Berichtsgebiet betreuen, aber auch bald wieder verschwinden, weil sie andere Posten bekommen oder selber Korrespondent werden. Wenn ich also keine kompetente Betreuung zu Hause habe, führt das automatisch zu Themenwünschen, die eben teilweise absurd sind. Ein gutes Beispiel is the coverage of the Bundeswehr mission in Congo. Anyone familiar with Africa, had to laugh, because what was provided for questions. This is unfortunately also for the public broadcasters. "What is the action? And there are child soldiers? ". They stood in Kinshasa, the war is over 2,000 miles away from Kinshasa. These connoisseurs really naive to not more tolerable questions reflect, of course, again, that make up needs, what one has failed permanently: to report Somewhat over one of the greatest conflicts of the time, and that the Congo conflict, which now as it were in competition with other major conflicts again absolutely does not matter.
Leif Mr. Schulze, from your experience as a press officer and as a book author: Are there differences between print journalists and journalists of electronic media?
Schulze: We have really seen hardly any. The only distinction we have really noticed over again was this: Was the complete package booked with armed forces or their own local correspondent, who has also sought ways away from his stories and has maintained his contacts over the years. This one has really seen the difference.
Leif: And how it looks with footage, that is, material that is rotated by the military? Returns the Bundeswehr pictures?
Schulze, 'We have also made such a matrix for the Y-newspaper of the armed forces. Of course there is also material on to the media that are not there on the spot. And I do believe that there is one or the other "mess out" with.
Leif Mr. Raman, the colleague said of the ARD, the best suppliers, the U.S. military in Afghanistan, but also in Iraq. They have brought the top images. They came in the "Daily Show" but has not been identified. That's fine, morally okay in your view that you take pictures of the military?
Raman: That is certainly the case in Iraq rather than Afghanistan because it is very difficult in Iraq, überhaupt Bilder zu bekommen. Daher man nimmt, was man hat und kommentiert entsprechend. Viel schlimmer finde ich, dass man Bilder von irakischen Kameraleuten nimmt. Man steht irgendwo vor einem Fünf-Sterne-Hotel vor der Kamera und sagt was, sagt aber nicht, dass die Bilder, die jetzt gezeigt werden, von einem irakischen Kameramann gedreht wurden, der dafür sein Leben riskiert hat. Aber so oder so: Ich glaube, es gehört zu einem guten Journalismus, dass ein Journalist seine Quellen angibt.
Problem 5: Vorbei am Bürger
Das Dilemma der späten Sendeplätzen
Theveßen: Wir müssen nur gucken, dass wir unsere Struktur entsprechend anpassen. Von diese Reisen mit der Bundeswehr oder with politicians, the ZDF has made, for example, in 2006-07 four pieces. Four. And everything else in Afghanistan coverage during that time - 12 journeys by Uli Gack, two big breaks from Ulrich Tilgner - made on your own. The "mirror" Susanne Koelbl is always on your own way. This procedure generates hundreds of contributions and switching conversations with Afghanistan in these two years. And yet, for some the impression that we would report only loyal to the government and we would accept this offer forever grateful. This is not the case. We have in the past two years as first reported that massive equipment defects was in the army. We have reported the first to know that in Afghanistan the umschwang Stimmug in the population to the armed forces and that faith was lost to a future of stability. These are things that have explored our correspondent Ulrich Tilgner and Uli Gack site on your own.
Leif: Because I can give you right if I can perhaps briefly hooked again: For a reproach I have to do to you but it will often 23 clock 45 Tuesday or Wednesday evening, when the average Joe citizen, in the morning get up at seven and eight clock must clock at work must be no longer simply watching TV. The normal citizen is not until a clock at night and carefully enough to be watching this really very good. You have certainly right that there were also very good reporting on Afghanistan. But it was often too late during the week, on a time slot where to locate these important issues in my opinion have nothing.
Theveßen: I agree with you: The long, detailed runs often relatively late. I do not know how often you "today" and "heute-journal" see. And among hundreds of articles, I have just mentioned, especially "now" and "heute-journal" posts that are four minutes long, but still very impressive. Per week, the people watching on average one and a half the "heute-journal" - then turns in the end the question of how much of this reach international reporting in ARD and ZDF in the audience.
Problem 6: Safety First
good international reporting is a question of risk
Leif: But now again back to this "embedded journalism", would you say today that public broadcasters have to fly with a fighter plane? Should not we basically give up?
Theveßen: The fact is that the colleagues Gack and Tilghman are always traveling on your own and that of civilian airlines. Only in exceptional cases where it is particularly dangerous was, they once made a domestic flight with the Bundeswehr. Something else is the entourage that travels with politicians there. And you have my opinion quite correctly, that the police training in Afghanistan and not so well. Of 61,000 soldiers who have been trained in recent years, there are just 40 000. Where are the others disappeared 21,000, which has formed the West? These are all important stories, and we have to tell. For this we need people who are willing to tell it, play the whistle. And the risk some of their career to do so. Our colleagues who are on site to talk, sometimes you are, but need something at least through two sources have covered to the report.
Raman: But Mr. Theveßen, it is a fact that Afghanistan has a German reference. I find it strange that neither ARD or ZDF have a permanent office there. That can not be!
Theveßen: That's not true. We have of course a constant since Stringer, who comes from the country. And the colleagues who travel there are always been the same in recent years. So these are people who know about. Now comes one do so, and we should openly discuss: How dangerous is it? You are at high risk, our colleagues who have traveled there as well. Therefore, we have requirements, such they move, how often they call with the head per day. The risk is very high when they move into areas in which there is war, and that is in Afghanistan in a large part of the country the case. And then at the end is the question: Do we have enough experienced colleagues who have the training and experience to assess such risks? And as we go to that site, just when the situation is so dramatic dangerous?
Raman: Why are there these problems only with Germany? Like so make it the BBC and others?
Leif: BBC, Americans, CBS ...
Theveßen: I think we need more colleagues as Uli Tilgner, as Uli Gack, as You, Mr. Raman. And I think the fact we have to react structurally. We have to think for ARD and ZDF, as we send crisis reporters who are properly trained in these regions. And I think it makes no sense, young ladies and gentlemen who have just come fresh on the job, like in earthquake zones, flood plains, sent into war zones in order to earn their spurs. I think this should be our most experienced and skilled colleagues.
Leif: But is it to you as discussed in the hierarchy, whether one should not send to Afghanistan a person who is permanently there and perhaps not possible in the very hot areas? If the re- order of the day, or do you completely repressed?
Theveßen: Yes, of course, now we have discussed in relation to Iran, because Uli Tilgner not just continuously working for us from Iran. The question is at the end, whether you have a presence - and television is a bit more expensive than print and radio - to keep in place and can do and how to deal with security measures. In Baghdad, for example, the correspondent for a while at the Palace Hotel were housed. And they all know what happened there, in front of the Palace Hotel.
Leif: But you have again asked questions. Could you try to play the current status? Is there a change or it remains at the status we have now?
Theveßen: We stay in first place, the status we have. Because we believe that the risk, have a solid presence on the ground, the time is relatively large. But we're working with fellow colleagues on the ground, stringers, who know very well.
Leif: Stringer, I do not know if that is known to all. They are designed domestic support, in the material, but also informants. And I think, hardly a foreign reporter does not need this Stringer. New way, the term "fixer", that is someone special material concerned. Or?
Theveßen: Fixer is someone who of the contacts concerned.
Leif Mr. mosquito, you also have a fixer that?
mosquito: No, I do not have, I am my fixer.
view into the digital future: The revolution of technology
Leif: Maybe a positive conclusion: You have now seen the earthquake in Asia that many young ladies who worked for the North German Radio, with modern technology have reported. If this kind of coverage the classic crisis revolutionize journalism, so you can continue to work autonomously with little technology and more fresh unused, will see heads?
Theveßen: I think yes. The use of modern technology makes it easier to report directly on site. At the same time it increases, but the claim, not just a colleague to have on site, from morning to night live stands there and use all the programs, because the fact is hardly out of his hotel. Standing on some balcony, so he is not arrested by the military junta. We must ensure that we have more resources on the ground: for example, two colleagues with full teams, one of which perhaps will always remain on site, while the other stories examined, taking turns accordingly. But we are by this small technology capable of from the Irrawaddy Delta immediately to Germany Want to make contributions or be discontinued.
The role of the intelligence
Leif: title of our evening is indeed: the role of intelligence agencies. Mr. Theveßen, you are intelligence specialist. They are treated incredibly nice of the secret services. All they have, they give you first. No one knows why.
Theveßen: When the times were so ...
Leif: It is always others push themselves Theveßen is called and gets the online everything on the table.
Theveßen: I was never called from.
Leif: You send it by mail?
Theveßen: No, maybe not.
Leif: How did you do that? Can you tell us today, at least one mystery: How did you do that, you get this special super special privileged position?
Theveßen: There are no special privileged position, but it is quite simply what any journalist making that accumulate over the years, first information, second and third, material and contacts. By the way, both in the areas of security authority, as well as in the fields of the objects of consideration of the safety authority. This means that even in Islamic circles. And calls I've received so far only from informants in Islamist circles, or just by the whistleblowers from the authorities. And that is quite normal, good journalism, I think. And at the end of the leads to the fact that we consider must still ten times what you make of what you have for information. Ultimately, it is so that security agencies and especially the politicians behind it have a very strong interest to accommodate a particular view of things in the media. The higher the danger of terrorism, the easier it is to bring through the security laws, and its need to be aware of - and therefore maybe do not drive each sow through the village, which would perhaps like to heave some private media in the headlines.
Leif: If the BND and very specific times people would come to the massive shin, could Is it possible that you will be turned off?
Theveßen: I think I have the BND already entered quite a few times on the shin. What's off?
Leif: Parked means you will not get anything more on substance.
Theveßen: I get nothing? It may be that it is months of silence. That existed both in the BND, the BKA, and the Constitution. Even with Islamists can cause by reporting that they no longer call.
Leif: But striking thing is that you will be informed privileged and on another level Mr. Wagner. So obviously there is a certain division of labor.
Theveßen: No, so if it is talking in the background, as well as the colleagues of the "South German", the "mirror" the "world", the "Focus", ARD, ZDF, RTL, SAT1.
Leif: But focus must not be there. But he is there in part automatically.
Theveßen: I abstain from any decision.
Leif: Very twice and my song ...
Theveßen: There is an information market. From which we hold ourselves out as ZDF. In this market, information is exchanged, exchanged documents, and possibly also paid money.
Leif: Do not. So money is not there. In Lerchenberg is running out calculated?
Theveßen: Public law. Since I'd waste the fee payers' money.
Leif: But what is the "mirror" happens, for example, Susanne Koelbl - could theoretically have happened to you too?
Theveßen: I probably do not, I'm not important enough for. For me, however, there were already cases where one has tried auszuforschen private data. But colleagues who have dealt extensively with these areas, have already been the subject of eavesdropping. Joerg from Brase "Frontal 21" for example: There is also a trial run. Bruno Schirra is also now known.
Leif: Die wollen wissen, welche Quellen Sie haben.
Theveßen: Das würden die gerne wissen. Das haben sie auch bei Susanne Koelbl wissen wollen. Mittlerweile machen sie das fast subtiler, auch das muss man offen sagen. Als die Entführungen in Afghanistan im vergangenen Jahr waren, gab es ein Hintergrundgespräch. Und hinterher wurde von deutschen Sicherheitsbehörden eine nette Übersicht über die Struktur der Taliban verteilt. Da waren die Telefonnummern von Taliban-Sprechern drauf. Das heißt, so macht man es wahrscheinlich perfekt. Man verteilt diese Telefonnummern an Kollegen. Einige sind dann wirklich so dumm, rufen da an und stellen all die Fragen, die die Sicherheitsbehörden gerne mal beantwortet haben möchten.
Leif: But overall you feel comfortable in the role as an intelligence expert?
Theveßen: I am the terrorism expert, not the intelligence expert.
Leif: So I put an incorrect insertions.
Theveßen: That may be. I feel in the role well, because I believe that one can very well explain and very objectively, the way things are. You can explain what is on a terror warning it - or not.
Leif: Have you ever had a feeling that you have been exploited with information?
Theveßen: Yes, absolutely. The experience you will ever make. The bottom line is that you are at the end not be exploited.
Leif: Mr Raman, you are a committed partner of intelligence agencies. I was surprised. You said you are "super happy" with the secret service people. What drives you always in the arms of the secret service?
Raman: I've been really addressed very often. Anticipated first: There are only two intelligence services, ISI, Pakistan's and Mossad. The other intelligence agencies play. Which can not be taken seriously. Shortly after the Americans were in Afghanistan, I met a man in the so-called "German Club". I've talked briefly with him. I said: BND. Has become very acidic, would not talk to me. But the next day he had calmed down and we became friends. Officially, he was not a BND-man, but he always wanted to see my stuff I was shooting. I have also shown it to him. Why not? And then he advised the ambassador there. The other day I was once called me to go to Cologne, and eat in a restaurant of his choice with him. Then he told me, this meeting had been approved by the top official and he offered me several opportunities for intelligence work, inter alia, to proceed to Sudan. I said to him: "Say, Mr. Weber, all I know is in my film. Why do you want me to pay? "At the end of the evening had I sell it somewhere under a bridge in Cologne. Then he is going through the grass and gave me at parting like in the movie "Casablanca" said: "This could be a good friendship." And he was gone.
Leif: Has it become a good friend? Where next?
Raman: Yes. You know, I am a much more open type. I tell you what I know. I have no secrets. I also give more stories to journalists. I do not have these problems. To me to show you what can!
Leif: And from time to time you are useful for?
Raman: I think so. You ask me for opinions and such. So it was at the CIA. Constantly, always some invitations.
full circle - if intelligence agencies cooperate and correspondents
Leif: Now we want to use again with the key informants. We are lucky today, because by chance is also Professor Geiger here. He used to be head of the BND. I would like to ask him sometimes spontaneously, if he had in his office could imagine that such a thing as now, the "mirror" the interception or collection of information from Mrs. Koelbl, also could have happened?
Geiger: Who says a chief of a larger organization with 7,000 employees in my time, now 6,000, he knew what each of the 6,000 or 7,000 people each day who is an impostor. This means you can never rule out that in an organization, nor to collect in a news service, where also some people who deliberately want to gather news, everyone is working correctly. I would never give a different answer.
Leif: But Ms Koelbl is a journalist, and that their emails will be checked and controlled, that is not a trivial matter, not even in your view?
Geiger: No, it's not a petty offense. And the public reaction was quite unique. When I introduce myself, I would have been employees of the BND, and sitting in Kabul - woher bekomme ich meine Informationen? Es wird natürlich von der Zentrale erwartet, dass wenn ich schon dort bin, ich auch etwas berichte. Und zwar nicht das berichte, was einen Tag vorher schon in der „Neuen Zürcher Zeitung“ gestanden hat. Also, wo gehen Sie da ran? Da gibt es Journalisten, die können Deutsch oder Englisch, dann sprechen Sie mit diesen Leuten. Sie sprechen mit den Angehörigen anderer Botschaften, vielleicht haben die was gehört. Das ist ja eine der ganz großen Gefahren: Dass Journalisten und auch Nachrichtendienstleute, die in einer so isolierten Situation sitzen, sich untereinander möglicherweise auch ein Bild zeichnen, von dem sie hinterher alle überzeugt sind, dass es das richtige ist, feel, and then confirmed because they realize: Oh yes, on television, in broadcast or newspaper, I have seen, heard or read, so I'm right. And then we come full circle. I think this is one of the great dangers. Even if we talk about journalism abroad or when we think about the issue: What we know about foreign countries? Since I can only say, has in my time if I have read reports, driven around the question: Is this the real report? Is this the truth? Or is it only possible close to the truth? If you immediately turn in Iraq, you are embedded, not in the military, but in the population. Then there are of course very different approaches. But for others it is incredibly difficult. And you can also imagine the CIA or the MI6 man from Great Britain, which falls on immediately. Could of course try to have sources. But what sources will be back? If it is not the same sources, which all have?
Leif: You now have to pose questions. And how would you answer it? What quality of information you can see from the BND? Is this really the reality ...?
Geiger: We must make it. We all know that about 90 percent of the information now for open sources of information. This is quite crucial. The need to evaluate. It interested possibly an intelligence agency not only how the political situation in general. We can learn from the media. What should bring out the intelligence service, other questions: What does Nasrallah do? What does he actually do with Hezbollah? Did he really going to take over Lebanon? How exactly are the relations of Nasrallah to Iran, Syria? Where is the running lines? Where weapons are transferred? What Iran does with its missile technology? How far is it exactly? Which way it goes with the nuclear equipment, nuclear weapons development? This is information that I can not possibly see the "Neue Zürcher Zeitung", but that would now be information which are very important for policy. That is, one has to wonder, perhaps: If you had to make the intelligence services of other tasks, and the other is omitted. Since you have plenty of new information, if you have access. And bring something too.
Leif: What about your experience with intelligence services of disinformation to journalists? The fact that she faked to bring atmosphere enriched reports so that journalists write in their favor?
Geiger: I'm in the business a long time been in there, but in my time been aware of an open house and talked to many journalists. Of course, not under an assumed name, but as the then President the respective office. I have told the journalist what I think it is important for journalists, in my view the world situation. It contained the opportunity to object to me or to simply remain silent and then decide what you make of it, or for any other information in putting it - or nothing to do with it. I would not come up with the idea of the journalist to blow anything, because I want to draw a picture to which I am personally very much interested in the truth, and far too curious to now something wrong to bring into the world. I am not interested in the times of Gehlen's era and I can not remember that, when Powell and his famous appearance at the United Nations Such would have happened, that one is constructed something. I was also a state secretary in the intelligence situation where you put those things and then talk. No one has made any proposal, as we add a special message.
Raman: You talk about Powell. This story has been played but from Germany.
Geiger: Yeah, well, I mean ...
Raman: This man, this alcohol to ...
Geiger: I know of course not the exact story. I know them only from the media. But I know from the media vice-versa, that is the Americans in time, long before the deadline, made it clear that they should not be based on. If the Americans had wanted, they would have the source they had to assess it. According to media reports, the Americans have been shortly before or nervous and have asked: Is there a confirmation? They've received but not definitive. I think that you can not make the Federal Intelligence Service alleges that he has written the story differently, because he reported at a late date to
or not the truth about this source.
Leif: Finally, perhaps to write: When this case Koelbl have any consequences or the routine, and you forget that quickly again?
Geiger: Mr. Uhrlau has expressed very clearly his concern over the incident. That was not played. I know him personally. I have not spoken with him about it, but I've seen him in the media and read what instructions he has issued. He definitely does not want such things. One must of course consider who was the target of the whole operation. And just to say: The goal was a completely different person - in this context there a journalist - then know you have to, of course, what do you do with this information, where you once consultation takes and what it does exactly, so that one not just in there, when people goes in do not. Article 5, Grundgesetz, Pressefreiheit ist nun mal wichtig.
Theveßen: Und das ist sehr wichtig, wenn unsere Kollegen in Afghanistan oder Irak unterwegs sind. Wir wissen alle, dass die Kollegen vor Ort abgehört werden, genau wie hier. Aber in dem Moment, in dem Emails länger aufbewahrt werden und schön weiter gelesen werden, da wird es höchst illegal. Angeblich sind da ein paar aus irgendeinem Referat aus dem Ruder gelaufen. Das können Sie wahrscheinlich bei der Größe des Ladens nicht ausschließen. Fest steht, dass trotzdem jemand dafür verantwortlich ist oder die Verantwortung tragen muss.
Fragestunde
Leif: Vielen Dank erstmal an Herrn Professor Geiger für diese Eisbrecherfunktion. I hope that we have now been fed with enough material that you might now even want to ask questions. Have the opportunity to do so. We collect the questions.
Question: My name is tungsten steel. I'm from the West German Radio and I wanted to fly like Mr particularly ask about the correspondents in Nairobi. Would you say that's been a problem of the correspondents that you have described, or the problem is one of the thing because there are so many countries over which he had to report? Would you even go so far as to say that this is intentional by the ARD?
Question: I would like to ask the ZDF colleagues, how does it actually Antonia Rados that now, suddenly appears on ZDF, which was until now seen in ntv or RTL. If the ZDF had the appropriate colleagues lost?
Question: My question is addressed to the press officer. You have indeed described above, that you miss the concept in principle. I wonder how you managed to meet a mate on the one hand, your order, a product that should be perfectly possible to produce, and on the other side, the lack of common sense, they have even suggested not to be influenced?
Question: My name is Hardy Voss and I am a retired civil servant. How to solve the dilemma of the journalist that he once constitutionally granted freedom of reporting unfolds on its own initiative, and sets priorities, but has always must have the certainty that what he prepares and sends, does not run in prime time? How do you solve this dilemma in practice, because it turns so constantly?
Leif: Good. Mr. Mosquito, maybe you start with the first specific question of the WDR colleagues.
mosquito: So that would be wanted by the ARD, I can not imagine the best of intentions. There are structures in which work must correspondents, in which they must profit by it. The need for reporting is obviously there. And one can not Say that the correspondent has not worked. He has worked as an animal! have to make first thousand articles. Only: Our job as a journalist is research, and to what extent the movement in the self-referential media system is good journalism? And the structural question arises: Why is there no debate about that? Who do not or hardly exist. Why is not sufficiently competent care on the editorial page? Why the ARD radio has reduced foreign editors, thus creating structural incompetence? This may not be the intention, I know. But the question you must answer. You are in the organization, you need to your editor in chief, program planner or raise else whom.
Leif Mr. Schulz, you can again respond to the officer in question?
Schulze: I was not a press officer at the time when I was in Afghanistan. I was a platoon leader paratroopers train that has gone on patrol. I was practically every day on the road outside the camp and worked with the local people had carried out a Show of Force and obtained information. And I have already participated in other missions abroad and, for me, recognized that the armed forces of Snakes on the spot. There is no development felt were from the beginning or middle of 1999 then in 2002 the Balkans to Afghanistan. It took me two or three years after dem Vertragsende, auch nicht zu versuchen, Berufssoldat zu werden. Dieses Buch war natürlich eine Art Frustbewältigung für mich.
Leif: Wie reagieren eigentlich Ihre Kollegen auf das Buch? Sind Sie so ein Fahnenflüchtiger?
Schulze: Ja, ich war die Unke in unserem Team. Ich habe Kollegen, dem Verlag und meinem Autor gegenüber gesagt: „Wir werden als Landesverräter dargestellt.“ Ganz anders ist es gelaufen: Wir haben bis in den obersten Rang hoch ein Feedback bekommen: „Danke, dass es jetzt jemand mal gemacht hat, ungeschminkt. Und wir hoffen, ihr seid da so eine Art Wellenbrecher.“ Denn die Realität ist 3.000 deutsche Soldatinnen und Soldaten sind zum Teil unter widrigsten Circumstances and conditions there on the spot, in a very very dangerous mission.
Leif: Exactly. And for the soldiers wives, you are kind of Lili Marleen?
Schulze: Yes.
Leif: they say the readings?
Schulze: Yes, yes, they say. We wanted to just give the public a gritty, unvarnished view.
Leif: And now we get a question from Mr unvarnished Theveßen to the PR question to Mrs. Rados.
Theveßen: PR question?
Leif: Yes, that's the wedding gift for Mr. Kleber.
Theveßen: What we need to make foreign reporting even better experience, Knowledge and skills - ie colleagues, combine all in itself. We can on the one hand, by finding colleagues who have accumulated the experience for years or decades. Uli Tilgner we have been deprived. Now we have Antonia Rados. That was contrary to what was rumored in some newspapers, by the way not planned. And we are very happy that Antonia Rados has made it the fastest get in, to Myanmar and has also reported very good. At the same time we also try to train younger colleagues in the ZDF-intensive. With us there is a crisis training, as you go through several courses through, some way, even with the Bundeswehr. And psychological pressure is simulated.
